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1860 and all that
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giles b



Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 2004
Location: London

PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Here's a comparison between a Hornby 4-wheeled coach and my back-dated version; the three parts have just been plonked together, and are not yet cemented in place. At present I've substituted 10.5mm diameter wheels, and lowered the roof peak to match one of a pair of almost-flat coach roofs I picked up at a French show some years ago, when I had my Ste Emilie layout. The coach is already looking better, but I think I can go further yet. There's a 1mm strip of "spare" body than can go, just above the upper panels, and it looks possible to lose up to 1.5mm off the top of the underframe - I'll then build up the bottom of the underframe above the springs, to compensate.
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CRACKED



Joined: 12 Jun 2013
Posts: 134
Location: Lowestoft, Suffolk

PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Giles,

If you do not mind HO scale. there are a couple of RTR locomotives about that might suit your period.
1 The Bachman Norris 4-2-0 in I think their "Prussian" - used by the Midland Raillway on the Lickey Incline.
2. The Marklin/Trix "Aldler" (Eagle), which was built by Stephensons.

I seem to recall that the Rocket and a coach were recently in the Great British Locomotive Collection.

A few years ago K's did a series of Milestone Locomotive kits for that era.

Apart from the Kitmaster/Airfix/Dapol kit and the triang Rocket and coach which have already been mentioned nothing else springs readily to mind.
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giles b



Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 2004
Location: London

PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for that suggestion, Clive. I think given the small size of those prototypes, a 3.5mm scale model would be a bit too small in a 4mm scale setting. Also, the look of the era I'm considering is that typified by "Belerophon", a locomotive used on TV in the Cranford series a few years ago.

What I want to model is the period, after the "Earlies," when railways were starting to settle into the look that lasted through the second half of the nineteenth century.
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Blackcloud Railways



Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 1991
Location: Sandbach UK

PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've found the coaches that John Marsden lowered. This is the one with the motor bogie in it, used to push dummy locos.



Looking at the undersides shows how John trimmed the chassis and refitted it to the floor of the coach body (with the solebars removed).

There is also a strip pared off the tops of the bodies to lower the roofs. John had a lot more patience than I have. Rolling Eyes
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Once there were mountains on mountains and once there were sunbirds to soar with and once I could never be down.
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giles b



Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 2004
Location: London

PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many thanks for the pictures, Bob. John has done exactly what I was thinking of doing; good to know it works. I've just acquired another 4-wheeled body and a Jouef goods brake van which should supply a reasonable chassis - part of my "Penny dreadful" collection off eBay. That would give me four potential carriages if I also include my tramcar. I could use this with some brake-van ends and make something a little like the early Wisbech & Upwell coaches, perhaps.
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giles b



Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 2004
Location: London

PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thinking about the plan to end the run-round loop with a turn-plate leading to a short goods siding made me wonder how that siding would be shunted. I'd like to keep relatively hands-free, so don't want to go the capstan route. However a check on the Paseo turntable shows that the L&Y Pug I plan to convert and use will fit, plus a short wheelbase wagon - we are mainly talking about cattle trucks, horse boxes (which could be very short in the early days) or carriage trucks.

Meanwhile, I hope to have time to have a go at a bit more coach lowering tomorrow, when hopefully the "penny dreadfuls" might arrive.
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Blackcloud Railways



Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 1991
Location: Sandbach UK

PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In reality the spur serving the end loading dock and cattle pens would have been shunted by manpower, or at most a horse. A thin piece of stiff wire, blackened to make it less visible and possibly with a handle at the end so that it is easier to hold, could be used to prod the wagons into place.

As a more technical alternative a similar piece of wire with a hook on the outer end could be threaded through a hole in the end loading dock and poked out to hook under the wagon's chassis when pulling from the turntable or simply used to push wagons back out of the dock.



If suitably blackened, or painted to match the ballast, this piece of wire would be almost invisible. Especially if the layout is exhibited at a fairly high level so that the subterfuge is hidden behind the wagon to be manually shunted.

In plan view, keeping the operating wire close to one side of the dock would also help to hide it from view.



Loco operation of the siding would be unrealistic, not least because of the difficulty in balancing a heavy loco and a relatively light wagon on the turntable. A small station like this would not justify keeping its own shunt loco either, so the train engine would be used for shunting on the loop and conventional siding (but too big to share the turntable with a wagon).

No, I'm not on night shift. Just can't sleep but it's my day off work so I'll have a kip later in the morning (hopefully).
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giles b



Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 2004
Location: London

PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob, you're quite right, of course, about the balance of the turntable being out if the loco is off-centre. I'll bear your push-pull wire in mind when (if?) the layout is built.

Meanwhile, I'm searching for an early-looking horse box design. At present I have a Dapol body and am thinking of removing it's two "cupboard" sections, and providing new planked ends with a low-profile curved roof - with an oil lamp pot over the groom's compartment. Ideally I'd like to incorporate an open shelf for hay at one end of the chassis, but that would put the vehicle on a medium length underframe, and I'm looking for a shorter vehicle.
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giles b



Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 2004
Location: London

PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My "Penny dreadfuls" arrived today, containing among other things, a couple of Jouef goods brakes and the body of a Hornby 4-wheeled coach in very good condition. Accordingly I tried a little experimental work on three coaches for 1860. On the all-Hornby coach, I cut the solebars down to the level of the sub-floor as suggested in Bob's earlier post. This is complicated by the way the tension-lock coupler attaches, and it and the buffer beam need to be cut off the chassis and then separated from each other. Once the floor is cleaned up and all the nubs filed flat the body can be re-attached and the buffers re-fitted below the coach ends. They are now at the right height for non-Hornby stock, and the body height difference with the lower roof is such that I don't think a further reduction of the body sides will be needed.

Another Hornby body has had its floor cut away to fit onto the Jouef brake chassis, which has had 12mm diameter wheels added. Even with the high curve roof, the body height pretty much matches the other coach. I think I may just cut down the chassis of the third coach and leave the three coaches with slightly differing roof profiles. Meanwhile another Hornby long brake-van chassis has gone under the tram sides and goods brake end walls. I may transfer this to the other Jouef brake chassis, but it may then need a strip of extra styrene along its bottom edge, as otherwise it would be very low indeed. In theory the tram coach will work on both Shellsea and 1860.

I must think of a good name for the 1860 layout, which also means working out where it is set. The fringes of Dartmoor are a possibility; could it be the original Trewyze Tramway? The railway north of Liskeard to Caradon and Minions is a good role model as it was established at much the same period - as was the Mawddwy Railway, both of which offer good ideas for rolling stock.

I'll do a little more work on these coaches before taking pictures.
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ruedetropal



Joined: 22 Oct 2006
Posts: 814
Location: Accrington, Lancashire

PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried to reply to this thread this morning bu computer decided it would do an update.
Anyway, I dug out one of my Piko HO 4 wheel coaches, and put it against a Dapol pug. It looked right size, despite being to smaller scale, and I do prefer the 4 compartment coaches to 3 compartment ones anyway.
I like the way Bob suggests for moving wagons on and off turntable. I shall probably do something similar on my Warwick Quay layout. My wagon turntables are only a few mm deeper than track so easy to fit, and can be operated from side easily. One track on each turntable is wired up so locos can run onto it, but I would not expect loco and wagons to be turned at same time.
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Simon Dawson
Will try anything once, looking for the ultimate easy to set up portable exhibition layout, preferably French narrow gauge and with lots going on, not necessary on the rails.

http://www.rue-d-etropal.com
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giles b



Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 2004
Location: London

PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd forgotten about that Piko coach, Simon. I don't have that much problem with a 3-compartment coach for a layout set in the early/mid-Victorian era. Recently I came across a picture taken on the Metropolitan Railway in the 1890s which showed a train containing what appeared to be a coach with only two compartments (six windows).

Lowering the Hornby body on its chassis does take it a huge step forward in terms of realism. Put it on a Jouef brake van chassis (lower still), the roof profile also lowered, and it starts to look like a very different animal.


Original Hornby coach, with Jouef conversion.


Hornby coach on lowered chassis on left; converted body on Jouef chassis on right.
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CRACKED



Joined: 12 Jun 2013
Posts: 134
Location: Lowestoft, Suffolk

PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just noticed in WHSmiths that the latest edition of the Great British Locomotive Collection is a model of Locomotion with a Chaldron wagon. These wagons lasted in internal Colliery service until the 1960's and in the 1860's were still in mainline service.
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ruedetropal



Joined: 22 Oct 2006
Posts: 814
Location: Accrington, Lancashire

PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the GBL model looks a bit small. Unlike the rest of the series a scale is not mentioned and popular thought is that it is HO not OO, which is a pity.
I had thought about the wagon, but decided I did not want to buy more copies just for the wagon. I know quite a few people have been disappointed, especially as it is final installment.
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Simon Dawson
Will try anything once, looking for the ultimate easy to set up portable exhibition layout, preferably French narrow gauge and with lots going on, not necessary on the rails.

http://www.rue-d-etropal.com
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alastairq



Joined: 31 Aug 2008
Posts: 355
Location: the land that time forgot

PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hear tell, the scale is close to 1:100! I did consider the wagon [& tender] for conversion to narrow gauge stock, on the cheap...but they are rather twee!
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alastairq



Joined: 31 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote





Both the above are from RT models...just over a tenner each with wheels.

http://www.rtmodels.co.uk/rt_models_031.htm
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