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1860 and all that
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Blackcloud Railways



Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 1983
Location: Sandbach UK

PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've just had a quick examination of one of John's cauldron waggons. They appear to be made from coffee stirrers around a solid wooden base with a real coal load. To model them as empties I'd suggest building a cardboard box and cladding it with the coffee stirrers instead of using the solid wooden block.

The underframes look to be made from styrene strip. The only commercial components are the wheelsets and the couplers. John built a batch of these which are all virtually identical apart from the motorised front wagon, with the horses attached on wire traces to keep their feet just above track level. The odd waggon out is built around a SF cablecar mechanism.

The waggon looks rough in these cruel close up photos, but remember that they were often built by the colliery's own carpenters (who were probably more used to making pit-props) and not in a proper railway workshop. On top of which, the cauldrons would have received a lot of hard knocks in traffic. Dumb buffers bashing together in transit and rudimentary tipping mechanisms at the staithes would ensure that any square corners didn't stay square for very long!
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Jordan



Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 1385

PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Last year we visited Beamish Open Air Museum, and had a ride on the Pockerly Waggonway there. A sophisticated ride it is not!! Those wagons of John's are spot-on, really look the part!
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CRACKED



Joined: 12 Jun 2013
Posts: 130
Location: Lowestoft, Suffolk

PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pit props are quite accurately made. The main reason for using timber in the round is that is 10-15% stronger than when saw cut.

Another thing to remember with Chaldron wagons is that at the time of their construction coal was sold and taxed by volume not weight. The excise men used to measure each wagon before it could be used.
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giles b



Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 1964
Location: London

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been experimenting with coach liveries recently, as both the converted coaches are virtually ready for painting. Originally I'd thought maroon, but this is in short supply and what I have is reserved for another project. Dark brown is a bit too much like Isla Blanca, but a chance browse in the latest RM showed another possibility. I'm going with yellow ochre sides with chocolate ends and running gear, and possibly white roofs. This carries back to the 1840s and perhaps early 50s when trains had quite bright liveries. I hope to be able to show the results after the coming week-end, but early trials look quite promising.

I suspect that if a layout emerges eventually, it will have to multi-mode, at least in date terms, so would be the X&Y Railway in 1860, with a take-over by the GWR after about 1875, leading to the layout's second incarnation as an absorbed GWR line in the 1930s. There could be a cabless 0-4-0ST for 1860, and another version, Swindonised as an 0-4-0PT for the later period. The excuse for this would be the engines used on the Cleobury Mortimer & Ditton Priors line which started off as saddle tanks and later were rebuilt as Panniers; I suspect much the same may have happened in S. Wales. As yet there have been no decisions as to where the layout might be set.
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Simon Hargraves



Joined: 26 Apr 2010
Posts: 118
Location: Hastings

PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The livery sounds good, Giles......it'll certainly be different!
I'm sure I've seen (both in GW Absorbed Locos and books on South Wales Railways) several examples of former saddle tanks of various provenances that were, indeed, converted to pannier tanks when reboilered by the GWR as a result of the latter's desire to use Belpaire fireboxes.......side tanks mostly seem to have escaped conversion for the obvious reason that a Belpaire firebox wouldn't impinge on the tanks.
I can't remember whether it's been mentioned so far, but the Van and Mawddwy railways both had some VERY ancient-looking coaches in their early days.
Regards,
Simon.
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Blackcloud Railways



Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 1983
Location: Sandbach UK

PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And there's a third option for the layout's progression through history.

About 1895 mineral traffic, the line's main source of income, dried up and the GW ceased operations leaving the railway to the ravages of nature. Three years later it was sold, for the cost of the land only, to a local business conglomerate, but they too failed to make a success and the line again fell derelict. In 1910 a certain Colonel Holman Fred Stephens took control...

NOW - You can, quite literally, get away with just about anything that takes your fancy. Very Happy
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giles b



Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 1964
Location: London

PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Simon Hargraves wrote:
The Van and Mawddwy railways both had some VERY ancient-looking coaches in their early days.


I've a picture reference for the Mawddwy Railway, but have never seen much about the Van line. Looking at some of my other reference pictures, particularly Dursley c. 1859 it seems my coaches may be a bit modern! Perhaps the dateline will have to shift forwards about 10 years.

Bob - interesting additional history with more than a whiff of West Somerset Minerals. At present my thought are to keep the GWR theme in the 1920/30s as I have a Pannier that needs to get out of its box, and I haven't done a line with a Western theme since scrapping my first layout in about 1962.

The idea of a local industry is good. I have in mind the addition of a local quarry to keep the line in business - so more akin to the CM&DP Lt Rly in its GW days. If the quarry line runs into the bay platform and has its own loco perhaps I can get away with one engine in steam on the "main" line and no signalling - making the change-over between the two periods easier.
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CRACKED



Joined: 12 Jun 2013
Posts: 130
Location: Lowestoft, Suffolk

PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It wasn't just absorbed engines that got converted to Pannier tanks. A lot of the Wolverhampton built Saddle tanks were rebuilt. However I think one lasted until 1951 as a Saddle tank before being scrapped.

The first GWR Pannier tank was a 4-4-0 with outside frames which was later sold to a colliery in Northumberland. A fair few pannier tanks ended up at collieries and in industrial use.
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giles b



Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 1964
Location: London

PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Visited the Beckenham show today - found lots of cheap "chop-fodder" wagons and bodies for back-dating to c.1860. Potentially there are 2 coal wagons to come out of a pair of Hornby cattle trucks, with one of their underframes going to a carriage truck, for whose sides I found a "thingy" (part of a log-handling model, as it seems to have some sprung grab-arms below a partly fenced decking); then there was a Triang van body, less roof, that could become a medium height bow-ended open (thanks for that idea, Bob). Finally another Triang van body to be back-dated with heavy wooden outside framing, plus a Hornby H&B type van.

I may be able to post edited photos soon. I forgot to take a camera so have no layout pictures, although there were some nice things (and some old friends) there.
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giles b



Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 1964
Location: London

PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A little while ago I was debating what to do about coach liveries. The all-yellow version did not look as good as I'd hoped - rather too close to the Hornby Engineers coach. Instead I've gone for a two-colour version, with the lower panels, ends and window reveals in Tamiya Hull Red (though the photo shows there's still a bit of tidying up to do). This makes the Hornby coach the "newer" livery, as the other coach is all Hull Red. I've also started to add full-length footboards to the red coach as the original shorter ones looked odd. The Terrier is also too modern, but helps show the scale.

In truth, I suspect that both coaches are still a bit too modern for 1860, but I think I can live with them.

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Blackcloud Railways



Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 1983
Location: Sandbach UK

PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Hornby four wheeler would appear to be based on the 1870s sort of era.
(http://www.knottycoachtrust.org.uk/project28.html)
I would not be bothered by that though because the development of railway coaches was a slow and prolonged process. I don't think many rivet counters (or should that be screw counters for a wooden built vehicle?) are going to question the design, especially as the models have been lowered on their frames and are obviously not straight out of the box.
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giles b



Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 1964
Location: London

PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blackcloud Railways wrote:
The Hornby four wheeler would appear to be based on the 1870s sort of era.


I was thinking along the same lines, Bob. Perhaps I'll have to re-name the project! At least the red coach (whose body is also of Hornby origin) looks a bit older and I hope to produce another of these, now I have another Jouef brake van chassis to use.

I'd rather keep the period a bit earlier than the 1870s, if possible, as I want to have some fairly primitive goods wagons in use. Having said that, plenty of old wagons lingered on while new designs evolved, some of them lasting into the 1890s. I'm thinking of siting the layout on the Welsh border, so we could have some of the very short Welsh P.O. coal wagons in evidence. In any case I'm afraid I'm only going for a generic look, so those "screw counters" will be able to find plenty to moan about, if the layout ever goes public. Smile

I found a very useful modelling chat page about four years old which has some useful ideas and period details. Those cattle trucks I bought at the week-end may get to meet a razor-saw tomorrow.
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giles b



Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 1964
Location: London

PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One cattle truck met its fate today and has been reincarnated as a short (though probably not short enough) open wagon. The result, still work-in-progress, is a wagon that is one step better than a "Rocket tender" conversion, but still shows its links as a vehicle somewhere between a farm cart as a railway wagon. The other one will follow suit once I have a suitable chassis to shorten.

Meanwhile, I have taken the sides out of a Triang TC stock car. As there is no need for any more On30 goods stock, for which it was bought - and as the FCCyO have stopped transporting cattle to Puerto Paseo - the bogies will go under one of my FC Norte coach conversions while the body will now become two 00 scale wagons for the Victorian project. One will be a cattle wagon, the other a forerunner of a Siphon-style milk van.

More work maybe tomorrow - or a least a picture showing the chopped bits.
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giles b



Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 1964
Location: London

PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So far two wagons for 1860 are under construction; the first picture shows the ingredients for the cattle wagon (partial stock car sides plus a narrowed door from a cattle wagon).




The second picture shows the body, half-built and placed on a suitable underframe for evaluation.
Alongside is an open wagon using more of the cattle truck body on a shortened and lowered Hornby wagon underframe. It's the wooden outside bracing that slightly puts me in mind of the Rocket's tender. I've another of these to produce, but need to find another underframe for it. Ideally it should be dumb buffered - something else to think about. The wagon body scales out at about 14ft and the wheelbase is 7ft 6ins, which gives it a square and boxy look that I rather like.
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Blackcloud Railways



Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 1983
Location: Sandbach UK

PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like that outside framed open, might have to destroy a couple of collectors item cattle wagons to make an On30 version. Wink
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