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1860 and all that
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giles b



Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 2004
Location: London

PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two more pictures from a photo shoot yesterday - the results of which should be in print in a year's time!
A contrast in saddle tanks. Number 1 runs into Great Sutton with a train from Bridgnorth, made up from the line's newer coaches. Looks like there's some unfinished shunting on the branch line.


Number 5 arrives, heading for Ludlow
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giles b



Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 2004
Location: London

PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just had an opportunity to visit the area where the MSR is supposedly located, and drove up Corve Dale from Ludlow to Bridgnorth to see just how feasible a railway up the valley might have been. On the whole, not too bad, as it turned out only involving a little cut-and-fill in places, although my Great Sutton village turns out to be a bit optimistic; the actuality being a couple of farms (one named Great Sutton) and a cottage or two.

The area is deeply agricultural, so one might assume a good traffic in farm produce, supplies and cattle. The villages, however, are small - often just a scatter of farm cottages. Diddlebury and Munslow are more substantial and might have warranted modest stations with a siding or two, while the others might have only needed a single siding and an unstaffed halt. Nearer Bridgnorth, Stanton Long and Monkhopton would have been halts with minimal goods facilities while Morville might have warranted a station.

Salop Street in Bridgnorth has a falling gradient, so the railway would need to approach the site of the terminus by following the contour of the hill, rather than running roughly parallel to the road. There wasn't time for more than a drive-by survey, but it would seem that a cutting to ease the gradient on the approach would have provided some spoil to level the station site. I must try to find a larger scale map of the area, but think a solution would have been possible at a price to suit a small railway company.

I didn't have an opportunity to visit Clee St Margaret, but noted the road to the village started from quite near Ludlow's outskirts and that further up the valley the slopes were steeper than a railway could easily negotiate, so the quarry branch might be a fantasy too far.
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Blackcloud Railways



Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 1991
Location: Sandbach UK

PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As long as the main traffic flow (outbound minerals) is with the grade a steep quarry branch could have a mixture of horse working and self acting inclines. Horses could pull the empty wagons uphill easier on a tramway than on a road and loads coming down inclines would pull the empties up... In fact the "branch" might even pre-date the main line, having been built to carry the load to the road.

The coal tramways around Mow Cop predate the local railways and had horse working on quite fierce uphill grades (against the load) on the Biddulph side while the descent to the canal (with the load) at Scholar Green was largely handled by inclines. The route down to a landsale yard at Congleton Moss remained horse worked and didn't last as long as the canal interchange.

It was only the introduction of steam locos, and associated problems of grip between wheel and rail, that created the need for waggonways to be re-engineered with easier gradients.
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Bob Hughes
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Once there were mountains on mountains and once there were sunbirds to soar with and once I could never be down.


Last edited by Blackcloud Railways on Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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giles b



Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 2004
Location: London

PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been giving in to temptation today.......a while ago, Tom Lloyd, a fellow member of the Wealden Railway Group, came up with a neat concept for a small Cornish harbour layout. Essentially it's an Inglenook, but with plenty of scenic interest.

As much of the track is flanked by stone setts, and there is only a minimum of ballasted track visible, it struck me that it might work as a good concept for a "crossover" plan on which to use either my Victorian, or 1930s GWR, rolling stock. I've adapted Tom's plan and placed the loco shed on a line that kicks back out of the fiddle yard, as this frees up the siding at the top of the plan for freight use. I've also placed a very small station alongside the yard throat. The thick end of the plan is 16 inches wide and the fiddle yard is 12 inches wide.

I drew it up full-size today, and it would work for either period. One could, just about, use it for a timetabled service in 1860 - a bit like the Redruth & Chasewater Railway, while in the 1930s passenger services would have ceased and it would be a goods only branch, perhaps with china clay or granite traffic keeping it open. Here operation would be merely shunting, with the train being propelled onto the wharf, dropping one set of wagons and picking up another set - the extra wagons in the sidings adding complications to the work.

Thus one might get two periods and two differing operating patterns out of the same plan. There's also the chance of some ship modelling. The layout has the provisional name of Porthcarro.
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Blackcloud Railways



Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 1991
Location: Sandbach UK

PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Introduce a gradient up from the harbour master's office into the fiddleyard and running round could be done by gravity. The two front sidings would then be at a slightly higher level than the track on the rear quayside, possibly being suitable for a mineral tipple from the middle siding into waiting boats.

This would be perfect for an early pit-to-port railway... Maybe even 4 ft gauge, to make better use of OO, for a proper Cornish railway?

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redruth_and_Chasewater_Railway)
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allegheny1600



Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 83
Location: Warrington, UK

PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Giles,
That sounds most interesting, I'd like to see it come to life.
It reminds me of the early workings of Ian Rice!
Would you need different boats for the different periods or could you get away with just one?
Cheers,
John.
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John E.

My other club's exhibition:
http://forum.mtimag.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=2119
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giles b



Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 2004
Location: London

PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob - tying to keep it simple. I also have 3 or 4 locos to find work for, so a station pilot is no problem. Also, keeping things relatively flat means I can swap to 1930s GWR with few difficulties. And yes, the R&C was my inspiration (once I managed to find the issues of Scale Model Trains that carried the original articles).

John - on that last thought: it is possible that a very primitive steam coaster might be able to span a 75 year operating period, but if not, I would have to provide a small sailing vessel for the 1860s. The sort of thing a man-&-a-boy used to sail from S. Wales to Watchet for the iron ore from the Brendon Hills. Fishing boats should be no problem - one might do for both eras, but some rowing boats fitted with a lug sail, or something similarly primitive, would be good for the earlier period. I found some good rowing boat castings for Shellsea, so could get more of these. Fishing rowing boats? - yes, almost certainly for 1860. This is off the top of my head - more research needed, if and when the project gets going.
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CRACKED



Joined: 12 Jun 2013
Posts: 134
Location: Lowestoft, Suffolk

PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Giles,

If you have it there is a Cornish village style backscene as the centrefold in the October Scale Model Trains.

The 4' gauge was not confined to Cornwall. It was used in Wales (the Saundersfoot and Padarn Railways). There were also several early originally horse worked lines in Scotland.
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giles b



Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 2004
Location: London

PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clive, yes, I have got it in my collection of magazines. I'll have to get it out and see how it might fit. Otherwise I'll try and find some online images to make into a jig-saw view. Not sure until the layout gets built just how the perspective needs to work.
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allegheny1600



Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 83
Location: Warrington, UK

PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Giles,
That was something I had been scratching my head over!
I remember helping Bob Harper with his Broad Gauge era 7mm switching (shunting) layout, set sometime 1870/80 IIRC and he had a 1920's era road vehicle on the layout too. He said most folk didn't realise there was nearly fifty years between the different models - to most people, everything was just "old"!
Clearly, not many people spotted the (deliberate) anachronism!
Cheers,
John.
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John E.

My other club's exhibition:
http://forum.mtimag.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=2119
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CRACKED



Joined: 12 Jun 2013
Posts: 134
Location: Lowestoft, Suffolk

PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Giles

It is the October 1982 Scale Model Trains. Apologies for missing the year out.
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giles b



Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 2004
Location: London

PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After some thought about the future of this project, it looks like the Salop Street idea (posted here on Sept 4, page 14) is the better bet for the future. Much as I like the Cornish harbour idea, I can't quite believe it would sustain interest over a two-day exhibition. Besides, there doesn't appear to be enough scope for the varied goods rolling stock which has been collected or built - cattle and end-loading traffic, for instance, are not really catered for. Part of the point of the design is its small size and simplicity, so I don't want the baseboard to grow any larger. Despite the seven points to be wired up, Salop Street caters for all the Victorian-era wagons built so far, and gives a better/more varied operating pattern. It also fits the lighting rig, shared by all my layouts.
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giles b



Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 2004
Location: London

PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While waiting to decide when to take the Victorian-era project forward, I am reviewing some of the half-finished conversion ideas. One is presently taking shape - a cattle wagon which uses the scrap body of a Hornby NER hopper, mounted on the underframe cut off a Jouef wooden open wagon. It may even get a roof, as there is something suitable in the spares box. The main aim is to try and disguise the origin of the parts it is made from, and still produce a believable wagon.
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giles b



Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 2004
Location: London

PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The sheep wagon has been finished - it has been so classified as the doorway is rather small for cows. The other open cattle wagon has doors off a Hornby vehicle, so is definitely for cows.

Today has been a transfer day, trying to get rather elderly lettering to transfer without breaking up. Behind all this has been some online research to see if I could discover names of collieries operating in 1865. Quite a few, as it turned out, although I haven't got enough Ls and Ys for some of them. Also found a coal merchant with a history that goes that far back. Admittedly it's based nearer Birmingham, but could have had customers, or even branches, in Shropshire. Otherwise wagons from S. Wales collieries might have been seen, which would have had access via the Hereford, Hay & Brecon Rly and then the Shrewsbury & Hereford, to get to Mid-Shropshire metals.
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giles b



Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 2004
Location: London

PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yesterday's progress is shown below. Most of these wagons had been allocated to be quarry wagons, but as these do not run to Bridnorth (where the new potential layout is set) they have become PO coal wagons. The names reflect collieries or their owners in the 1860s and the Wulfrana Coal Co (of Wolverhampton) was too good to pass up - it now has a branch office at Bridgnorth. Wagon colours and lettering are freelance. As you'll possibly see, I ran out of some letters, and P and Q had to stand in. These will be modified by hand later - and Swansea will have its name finished, too.

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