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British outline HO?
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1ngram



Joined: 19 Apr 2009
Posts: 12
Location: Aberdeen

PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The loco kit (GNSR S Class) came from Worsley Works 3mm range upped to H0 scale. The scotch brakes came, I think, from them also but maybe from Bill Bedford. I think you will find that brass kit makers are only too willing to rescale for you - at a price. I've never worked with brass myself or built a chassis so I am having someone build the loco for me. He is normally a builder in 3mm too but wants to entend into 3.5mm - again at a (reasonable, I think) price.

As for the 00 locos there was a huge article circulated to 1:87 menbers when I joined detailing all of what was available for British H0 modellers and therein there was reference to articles originally appearing in one of the versions of Scale Model Trains abouit the Bachmann LNER 0-6-0 which, with minor modifications, came out as an H0 loco. Also the Hornby(?) Terrier. I'm sure someone with a scanner would happily send you the original articles. Why not go to the British H0 forum: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/british-ho/messages, recently set up and ask for this stuff. There is also the Electrotren Sharp Stewart 2-4-0, one of which I saw for sale on Ebay only last night. Other options exist like the Pug which can take a tram bogie with skirts for another freelance industrial.

Join the Society - free this year so long as you only want the magazine on the Net and the back issues are full of helpful information about what can be built. The real problem for me has been the demise (temporary I hope) of the Society chassis which I have used to make all sorts of wagons.
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FrankHO



Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Posts: 11
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ken, thanks for the information. I already belong to the 1:87 Society, but was surprised that not everything mentioned on the website was for sale. I did enquire about the availability of the chassis as well, but to no avail. I have applied to join the Yahoo! group as you suggested and if accepted will ask if anybody has anymore information. Ta, Frank
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ruedetropal



Joined: 22 Oct 2006
Posts: 814
Location: Accrington, Lancashire

PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Though I should bump this thread up. Found it on google whilst looking for British HO info. I have met some of the HO people at exhibitions. The list of stuff on their website does seem to be limited, but I think if you look around now, then there are items that can be adapted. I was talking to someone at Derby, who was looking for HO scale letter boxes. Gave me some ideas.
I do know that 3D printing(going back a few years) has come to the rescue before, and I am planning to have anything I do in 4mm scale also in 3.5mm scale. Fortunately, assuming I have not skimped on wall thickness in 4mm scale, then it is a simple reduction in size.

I can certainly see OO models (wagons in particularly) being 3D scanned and resized for HO. There will be questions asked about copyright, but I can't see anyone stopping it happening for personal use.
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Simon Dawson
Will try anything once, looking for the ultimate easy to set up portable exhibition layout, preferably French narrow gauge and with lots going on, not necessary on the rails.

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FrankHO



Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Posts: 11
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2016 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi ruedetropal,

The wonders of the internet!

After such a long time with no response, I thought that this topic had died.
The British HO Society is still alive and kicking are you a member? Not much seems to have happened to British HO scale for a few years, the odd model has made an entrance onto the OO market and has been deemed to be suitable to converting to HO, together with a 3D printed model of a Class 43. Other than that it seems to be scratch building/modelling one offs or recycling old Lima stuff. Mention must be made of Mehano and Heljan Class 66 models however - if you can afford them.

I still believe that there is a market for 3D printed models, it is only a case of picking the right prototypes and selling them at an affordable price. Wagons would be an obvious choice, due to more than one being needed even for a small layout.

A model of a long lived diesel locomotive such as a Class 31, 37 or 47 would be the choice of motive power, after that take a look at the market and see what is asked for.

Because the British HO market is so small, making something for OO and then rescaling it down would probably make more commercial sense but if it started to gain traction who knows what could happen.

Get in touch with the society and ask them what might be a 'goer', they may even commission something!

Frank
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ruedetropal



Joined: 22 Oct 2006
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Location: Accrington, Lancashire

PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2016 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have exhibited at Eurotrack a couple of times, and on both occasions have talked to a member of the British HO group. Joining yet another group does not interest me. It is a pity their website is a bit out of date, I presume more info is elsewhere.
My main interest is narrow gauge, but I am thinking of a few standard gauge projects, mainly French theme, but with my 3D printed buildings, it would be possible to do something with a British theme. So many of the Continental and USA building kits don't look quite right, especially when you look at brickwork. A bit ironical is that some MKD kits ,now under Hornby umbrella use Wills 4mm scale bits(shop fronts,sheds,fences to name a few). It is thought they must have a large stock from before Peco took over Wills.
As for locos and rolling stock, it is not difficult to resize any models I design for 3D printing, but the cost for producing in 4mm is not worth it. Partly because, that as soon as I design something, someone plans one in r2r. I am also not interested in ultra scale, everything on it, models, but something I can design relatively easily, and then leave the modeller to customise. My buildings are the nearest I get to r2p, only needing glazing and painting.
When I do eventually tackle a standard gauge model (the first will have narrow gauge origins, being the 8ton Simplex loco, which would be a challenge to motorize!) .
For wagons, I would like to see a r2r 9ft or 10ft wheelbase chassis being done, not necessarily by 3D printing. The Electrotren British style wagons look closest, but they are not that cheap, which is a pity given they go with the low cost junior range of locos.
For coaches I think I am more likely to do something for 3D printing, as their is a dire shortage of pre grouping coaches. Again though for HO, I myself might be happy continental coaches, as they can be bought cheaply.
One thing that is holding up designs for HO, is possibly desire for designers to do something too perfect. As I said above, I aim at modellers who want to still model, and assuming I have rough drawings(with measurements), then I can 'knock out' a design in a couple of days, assuming I have the time to do it.
In fact the more I think about it the more that HO appeals to me. I still model OO, but my projects are usually based around what I can buy r2r, or design no for 3D printing.
I got back into railway modelling, whilst at uni. In my first year I used to walk up Fore St in Exeter, so noticed the display window for Peter Lindsey's shop, and actually bought a second hand Lima 4F in HO, not that I really realised it was HO , or was that bothered. It was a start, and I have been modelling for 40 years now. Motors have got a lot better, and I might be tempted by a Lima 4F again, but I would fit a new chassis(not dead scale, but near enough). I have a Rivarossi USA TC loco, and other locos which look reasonably British, just need some wagons, and again those Lima HO ones might be a start if I could find some cheap enough.

One thing I find odd is that some of the new entrants into r2r market have not offered an HO version of their models. In particular the classic Austerity locos such as the 060, which would be popular with continental modellers(2 operated in French Peugeot factories for many years, with British type wagons), and the price for HO version could offset price for OO version. The 2-8-0 and 2-10-0 locos would also be popular(interesting to see how well the new model from Roco for the USA version does, as I suspect quite a few ill find their way onto OO layouts!). The attempt by Bachmann to get Dutch interest by offering a 2-8-0 in Dutch livery did not get much interest, mainly because scale is important.It might actually make an interesting model for 3D printing(????) .
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Simon Dawson
Will try anything once, looking for the ultimate easy to set up portable exhibition layout, preferably French narrow gauge and with lots going on, not necessary on the rails.

http://www.rue-d-etropal.com
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ruedetropal



Joined: 22 Oct 2006
Posts: 814
Location: Accrington, Lancashire

PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2016 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

just wondering if thee is a Facebook page for British HO . I know some don't like FB, but it is a quick and easy way to share info.
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Simon Dawson
Will try anything once, looking for the ultimate easy to set up portable exhibition layout, preferably French narrow gauge and with lots going on, not necessary on the rails.

http://www.rue-d-etropal.com
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ruedetropal



Joined: 22 Oct 2006
Posts: 814
Location: Accrington, Lancashire

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I might have caught the 'British HO' bug.
I have been thinking, and using some of my 3D printed items I have the start of a small project. My shop and house modules are also in HO, so I can easily create a typical northern town street scene. Locos are not a problem, but short wagons. I am not interested in kits, but it should not be too difficult to design, say a 16t wagon body for 3D printing. I can cobble up chassis from some cheap HO wagons, cut and shunted! Definitely not finescale though. I could possibly do the chassis as it is about same size as my WW1 wagons in 1/35th scale and those have NEM pockets.
Pity all my copies of MTI are at my house in France, but I will collect some up as they are a good source for wagon drawings.

This would definitely be a contender for one of my suitcase layouts.
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Simon Dawson
Will try anything once, looking for the ultimate easy to set up portable exhibition layout, preferably French narrow gauge and with lots going on, not necessary on the rails.

http://www.rue-d-etropal.com
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FrankHO



Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Posts: 11
Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry for the delay in replying - life keeps getting in the way - this time some welding on the car!!!

I hope you have caught the HO bug, in the nicest possible sense of course.
I have been advocating that 3D printing is what would possibly give British HO a kick start but as I have not got the skill set it would not be coming from me.
With regard to some of the things you have mentioned in your posts, I think that joining the British HO Society should be top of your list. Even though you do not want to get involved in another 'chat group' it can be a source of ideas for the future and would be a quick way of getting up to speed on what has been tried before.
A company called Firedrake Models did some locomotive kits years ago but why they faded away I have yet to determine.
Balkan models commissioned a limited run WD 2-10-0 from DJH a few years but they have obviously all been sold and when I enquired of DJH about getting something from them, the response was definitely under whelming!
Likewise Mercian Models did a J94 kit - the same response from them with regard to obtaining something.
A society member called Lorenzo made a resin body for a Class 47 but I believe he is still 'fine tuning' it when work commitments allow him to do so. As aside I think he lives in France - maybe a neighbour of yours Ho! Ho!
A member in Australia did a resin body for a Class 55 based on a modified Athearn SD40 chassis as well, I bought one but it is still in my 'to do' box.

So as you can see, members have done some things but purely for the interest of the person concerned, which is what you would expect.

A Class 37 would still be a goer as far as I am concerned, as not was/is it a long served locomotive in the U.K. but it also saw service in France, Spain and I believe Italy on their High Speed Lines construction projects. A pair of Class 20's also went to France for some reason and saw service with the SNCF?

You could get a Lima wagon chassis underframe as a template off of E-bay to start you off on your project, if not let me know your details and I will get one to you.

Frank
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ruedetropal



Joined: 22 Oct 2006
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Location: Accrington, Lancashire

PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know that from talking to someone in British HO group, that 3D printing has been used quite a bit, before the term was coined.
Looking at the list of locos done as kits, they all suffere from the same syndrome, and that is limited production. Ideal for the few enthusiasts at the time, but less good for other , and indeed promoting HO modelling.
A few years ago, when Bachmann were planning their Austerity 280, and like today , taking years to actually release it, I decide to go back to how the original was done. That is , take one LMS 8F, put a simpler boiler and cab on it, LNER type cylinders/valve gear etc, and an LNER type 8 wheel tender, simplified, and you have the Austerity. I converted one from a Hornby 8F. Even the wheels were not a problem, as I was on very good authority that some ran with 8F wheels.
Now using say the Jouef chassis or similar(but probably better running), then it would not be a difficult model to build. 3D printed version should also not be difficult. The bigger 2-10-0 version should also be possible, assuming a chassis can be found. Both could be tender driven, making the loco chassis even easier.
Other locos such as the Austerity 060 should not be a problem. I have not looked at chassis, but wonder if the Electrotren/Jouef 060, with outside cylinders removed could be used, and those locos are still good value if you can get them.
As I said, 3D printing has an even bigger advantage and that is not being limited production, so once done lasts forever!
For wagons, I could convert r2r, and fit 3D printed bodies, but a basic 3D printed chassis, 9ft and 10ft, might be possible, and as I mentioned, I had NEM pockets on my WW1 wagons.
I have far too projects on the go. Need to get even more done with the buildings, especially as there are very few British themed buildings. I suspect most in British HO , convert 4mm scale stuff, with some continental/USA models which is fine up to a point.
I spotted the Yahoo British HO forum, but as it is members only I am holding back. I have my own reasons for this, but main thing is that if the door is locked no one can come in, and it is far better for niche parts of the hobby to be out there in public. Security(an excuse use for some private forums) should not be an issue, and as long as you have to be a member to post then there should be no problem. Similarly a FB page might help. Not volunteering though.
MTI and its predecessors was probably one of the few magazines that featured British HO, unless you go back to MRN and articles from Jack Nelson. In fact my project is as much about Jack Nelson, and if I can get hold of drawing I want to do one of the LNER EMU units. That is yet another project, but I am thinking that if I have to in effect built the trains, then HO is no different to OO, and the track gauge is more accurate.

Finally, it would be good to keep this thread running, as British HO modelling needs to be out in the open.
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Simon Dawson
Will try anything once, looking for the ultimate easy to set up portable exhibition layout, preferably French narrow gauge and with lots going on, not necessary on the rails.

http://www.rue-d-etropal.com
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ruedetropal



Joined: 22 Oct 2006
Posts: 814
Location: Accrington, Lancashire

PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is now possible to have shops and terraced houses with correct sized bricks for HO.
My modular 3D printed system has got to stage where this is possible.
Flemish bond initially, other bonds and stone surface also planned, far more than I originally thought and only a short way into project.
I need stretcher bond brick and stone for my own British HO project, just for houses and shops, garden wall bond probably for industrial buildings.
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Simon Dawson
Will try anything once, looking for the ultimate easy to set up portable exhibition layout, preferably French narrow gauge and with lots going on, not necessary on the rails.

http://www.rue-d-etropal.com
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FrankHO



Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Posts: 11
Location: UK

PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 9:01 pm    Post subject: Way to go? Reply with quote

Hi Simon,

The British HO Yahoo website maybe members only but as membership to the society is free, it is up to the individual how many of the numerous forums they want to contribute/read and if this one has enough on it to keep one interested. Personally I take the view that if you are writing/e-mailing you canít be modelling at the same time so I also tend to restrict my interest to only a few as well.
With regard to projects I think that I am in a similar boat as your self Ė not enough hours in the day! I have written to most of the model railway magazines and OO manufacturers over the years and have even had the odd letter published. They all agree that HO is the way to go except for two things. 1. It would be financial suicide for any OO manufacturer to adopt it alone, using Lima and Fleischmann as examples. 2. There are not enough articles and layout descriptions being sent to magazines for them to think that there is enough interest in their readership to encourage further expansion of HO in the U.K.

Itís all a chicken and egg situation really. British HO really is a modelling scale, in as much as, itís not available commercially so you have to either do it yourself or pay someone to do it for you. I think that I fall in between both camps, I do not have the skills or time to scratch build, say a locomotive, but kit bashing or modifying something isnít a problem. I really would like to purchase more from other modellers but, as you say, it is a limited run, it is someoneís Ďone offí or it is something that I am not interested in.

As I said before, a Class 37 or 47 would probably have the widest appeal locomotive wise and following Limaís 7 plank wagon and van together with a tank wagon and 16T steel mineral wagon would keep a lot of people happy Ė at least to start with!

I donít think that British HO will ever be a commercial success in my life time but I would like to think that if the movement grew to have the same membership base as the 3mm Society before I peg out, that would be enough in my eyes.

If you ever do find the time to do anything in HO, do let me know, I would be interested in anything in the steam/diesel era, especially B.R. (E.R.). I take the view that mainstream railway modelling tends to be 40/50 years behind the present day due to the average age of the modellers and their disposable income, but thatís another story.

Frank
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ruedetropal



Joined: 22 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frank,
I am not sure a big diesel would be that popular. It was that which was offered to Heljan, but they did not think there was enough interest, so moved onto OO range. For diesels, Roco by chance got it right with their 08 shunter. A class 37 might appeal, but only if it could also be done for French market, although their use was limited to construction work for the southern TGV lines. A class 20 might be popular, partly because it is suitable for a wide range of interests in UK, and some were sold to French private operators and used on what ere in effect branch lines on freight. They were also involved in the Balkans relief train.
For steam the Austerity 060 would be a very good start. I have been looking at a potential chassis and the Spanish one is too long. The Roco German BR 80 loco is pretty close, but not sure about height of motor. Again that problem faced by British HO modelling.
For commercial reasons it has to be a loco that can be sold outside British HO, and any military locos have that potential market. The USA TC is wonderful, but it is not exactly cheap. I was lucky to find one cheaper second hand but obviously not used, but it still cost me a lot.
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Simon Dawson
Will try anything once, looking for the ultimate easy to set up portable exhibition layout, preferably French narrow gauge and with lots going on, not necessary on the rails.

http://www.rue-d-etropal.com
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ruedetropal



Joined: 22 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2016 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Printed off a drawing of the Austerity tank loco in HO. Putting the Fleischmann chassis against it. The gears stick out too far so would be in front of can, The Roco chassis has heavy frame which is OK for loco with side tanks but not a saddle tank. the Hornby Electrotren loco is almost OK but wheel base is too long(well rear wheel is too far out).
On looking around I wonder if the Bachmann BR 03 oo gauge diesel shunter might fit. If the motor casing fits it should, the wheel base is slightly too short, but is the nearest I have found.
I might just start on design, would make a break from buildings.
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Simon Dawson
Will try anything once, looking for the ultimate easy to set up portable exhibition layout, preferably French narrow gauge and with lots going on, not necessary on the rails.

http://www.rue-d-etropal.com
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ruedetropal



Joined: 22 Oct 2006
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Location: Accrington, Lancashire

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2016 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

just done a basic austerity loco for HO


Still need to check out a chassis, but until I know how wide motor is in the Bachmann 03 diesel I can't modify underneath of body . If it does fit , it has benefit of no motor in cab
Price is very reasonable
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Simon Dawson
Will try anything once, looking for the ultimate easy to set up portable exhibition layout, preferably French narrow gauge and with lots going on, not necessary on the rails.

http://www.rue-d-etropal.com
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Moxy



Joined: 05 Jun 2015
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Location: Wigan, where it rains and rains and rains.........

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2016 4:45 pm    Post subject: British HO - J94 chassis Reply with quote

Simon,

If it's this Bachmann chassis http://www.bachmann.co.uk/pdfs/31-350.pdf then it measures 18mm wide, max height above rail level is 39mm.

HTH

Moxy
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